tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post7034320364296936554..comments2024-02-26T12:53:35.542+05:00Comments on The Republic of Rumi Blog: 10. PlatoKhurram Ali Shafiquehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15329916182280619617noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post-22896988619471394562010-03-01T12:50:30.556+05:002010-03-01T12:50:30.556+05:00Maybe an answer has already been given to Faraz?
...Maybe an answer has already been given to Faraz?<br /><br />I am so looking forward to this next chapter, introduced with this: "Avoiding further debate about the philosophy of Plato, the Poet has come to the point about the true nature of poetry in the very next chapter. This is what the Garden is all about..."<br /><br />Surely others here will also be eager for such a resolution...<br /><br />Yet of course no pressure at all...just mere anticipation and gladness for the future chapters...CNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877484524704475807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post-5032384244318198762010-02-14T09:21:58.469+05:002010-02-14T09:21:58.469+05:00I gather that there are two themes at present:
#1...I gather that there are two themes at present:<br /><br />#1) Empirically observed Phenomena- [that form reality]<br />#2) Acknowledging death - Which itself is also reality<br /><br />The first seems to be attributed to beauty<br />and the second [by Plato] to misery.<br /><br />The question of how to account for death's reality into our world view can have tremendous impact, it appears.<br /><br />Khurram Sahab, how does Iqbal reconcile death into his model?Faraz Haiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00362730608530380190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post-73336027632550179542010-02-14T02:25:01.474+05:002010-02-14T02:25:01.474+05:00So glad to see this discussion! While Plato is qui...So glad to see this discussion! While Plato is quite vague to me...that may be the point...much of ascetism is quite vague and perhaps vulnerable to lone and overly subjective interpretations and spirituality. Over and over again I see parallels between the most discerning Islamic teaching and what I find to be the most whole Christian interpretation..and here is another prime example...<br /><br />While in religion and spirituality we are often taught that the unseen is more important than the seen, felt and known experientially...if not anchored in the seen, felt and know experientially..than is not that kind of spirituality too flimsy to trust if not dangerous...NO MATTER how high and perfect and enlightening such "spirituality" may sound? <br /><br />Also, where then can be the God who cares about the mass of society?<br /><br />And yet we KNOW that the Living God does care and the principles of Love are not kept only for the most exclusive spiritual types of folk.<br /><br />What little I understand about Rumi and Iqbal both they cared like with the heart of Allah for those least able to follow the highest road to God and those who by nature were easier on their way.<br /><br />Not to mention we are not made of only Spirit but also flesh and blood and put into a world of senses...<br /><br />It's not usually a matter of totally cutting ourselves off from nature, senses and the tangible, visceral world yet a matter of how we use, misuse - understand - misunderstand such natural phenomena for not only our own life and legacy yet also for the life and legacy of our own groupings and our own planet...and this would seem to curtail any so called spiritual privilege of any ruling group from being more rewarded or loved by Allah than any other, no?<br /><br />I may be too long away from academic philosophy if I ever understood this yet this is how I see what you are offering to us both in the revised chapter as well as this discussion. Please correct and further my understanding...<br /><br />One last point, in my life experiences, admittantly limited, sometimes I've observed the apparently most spiritual, most principled and most disciplined or thought to be "special, set aside as near perfect" as in some, but maybe not all clerics, philosophers or ascetics...to be sometimes more vulnerable to a huge fall which nearly does them in for good and in rare cases are such people able to recover...yet it can happen.<br /><br />That is perhaps why there is greater seriousness and warning by the knowing to the younger and less mature about such matters?CNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877484524704475807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post-59656220780533094602010-02-13T13:46:47.703+05:002010-02-13T13:46:47.703+05:00These are very compact and astute remarks and need...These are very compact and astute remarks and need to understood in the light of Iqbal's teaching, that stands in complete opposition to the philosophy of negation and nihilism.<br /><br />"Ancient Plato appears before you like a flashback. His horse goes astray in the darkness of Ideas and becomes lame before the rocks of actuality. “To die is the secret of Life,” says Plato. “The candle is glorified by being put out.” <br />You see famous thinkers and writers from several nations and many centuries sitting at the feet of the philosopher."<br /><br />Some of the most famous and most followed and most respected Icons are doing nothing but following this sheep doctrine.... and making this world less beautiful, less challenging and more futile and more ugly...Akhtar Wasim Darhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09635876866214567866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post-30861531161293101742010-02-13T04:02:00.597+05:002010-02-13T04:02:00.597+05:00Thinking, thanks for commenting. The views express...Thinking, thanks for commenting. The views expressed here are Iqbal's and not necessarily Rumi's. "The Poet" in these posts refers to Iqbal. It is quite possible that Rumi may have held the same views about Plato, and that this is a valid interpretation of Rumi. However, we do not know for sure.<br /><br />Secondly, Rumi did not rule any state in real. "The Parable Never Told" which is the first chapter of this book is a fictitious account, and that is pointed out in the third section of the story itself :).<br /><br />The reason why Plato is incompatible with the model presented in this Garden is that here all investigation is based on acceptance of empirical evidence and the physical reality of this world but using it as a means for discovering what lies beyond, and reaching the spiritual. This is in line with the spirit of the Quran which frequently asks its readers to observe and explore the Nature.<br /><br />Plato, on the other hand, seems to be discouraging this kind of approach. Does that clarify?Khurram Ali Shafiquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329916182280619617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8751964279420308191.post-44569922814904218152010-02-13T00:04:47.591+05:002010-02-13T00:04:47.591+05:00hmm...Shafique Sahib...thanks for sharing...
One ...hmm...Shafique Sahib...thanks for sharing...<br /><br />One thing I could not understand about RUMI's opposition towards Plato....that...<br /><br />Plato strongly believe that PHILOSPHERS should rule or govern and state should educate generation in a way to make philospher rulers....<br /><br />And RUMI himself was a philosphers and he successfully ruled his country. What was the actual reason their thinking coincide??<br /><br />hmm...Thinkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12803582964869804576noreply@blogger.com